S7 E7 - How Two Contractors Grew Fast -Without Burning Out

[00:00:10.670] - Frédérique 

Thank you for being here today. I am with Matthew, Mathieu from Demco. 

[00:00:15.350] - Matthew 

Let's go with Matthew. 

[00:00:17.110] - Frédérique 

Matthew? Yeah, it's a little bit more langual, right? But you guys will understand. We're going to talk about your history, where you came from, and where you are today. So tell me a little bit about your story, Matthew. 

[00:00:29.110] - Matthew 

Yes. My name is Matthew. I'm the owner of Demco Canada. I started my life in Africa, Rwanda, where there was in 1993, the genocide. I lost a bunch of my family in the genocide. I have been adopted by a family living in Saginaw. So at 21 years old, I came to Montreal to become a police officer. And during my journey as a police officer, my mental health was going down because the city is hard. Sometimes I was like, it looks like a Gotham City in Batman you know. No, that's it. With all those crimes, all the drugs problem and the mental issue, whatever. 

[00:01:14.700] - Frédérique 

Yeah, Obviously, you're faced to that every single day. So it seems like everything is like that, right? 

[00:01:21.490] - Matthew 

Of course. You have no more hope, no more good feelings, always in the struggle of the society. So my mind was at one frequency, just like this. So I decided to take some, not a vacation, but a break. 

[00:01:40.920] - Frédérique 

Leave. 

[00:01:41.080] - Matthew 

To took a break. And I went to the construction. So at the beginning, I was doing junk removal. And by doing junk removal, I started to touch to construction junk. So after that, I was like, Oh, construction look interesting. So let's go in it. So when I decided to go in the construction, I started with the roofing. So I went to the school to get my license. I did the roofing for about... Intense roofing for about two years and a half. And after that, I went to school again to go get my general contractor license. And now I'm doing general renovation in Montreal. And I open another company in Saguenay, where I'm doing general construction also. 

[00:02:32.110] - Frédérique 

Super interesting. And today we're talking about growth. So you tell me you started roofing. What year did you start roofing in? 

[00:02:39.770] - Matthew 

2020. Covid. 

[00:02:41.310] - Frédérique 

2020? So that's like five years ago, right? And I'm thinking about you started one person in your company? 

[00:02:48.460] - Matthew 

Yeah. 

[00:02:48.620] - Frédérique 

And now you're not one person. 

[00:02:52.490] - Matthew 

No, I'm not. I have employees because before today, I had more employees. But when I was in my office, I was like, I'm not sure this model, this build up is the one that I want to operate with. So I took the decision to get back in my office and say, I'm going to have less employee, but more subcontractors, more employee in the backup office with me and two or three person that are... How do you say it in English? 

[00:03:28.760] - Frédérique 

On the field. 

[00:03:29.410] - Matthew 

On the field. On the field and to check my subcontractor. With this structure, it's easier for me to grow. 

[00:03:37.270] - Frédérique 

So that's why you went from in five years, a huge growth. Actually, you went from Saguenay to Montreal, first of all. That's a lot of kilometers. Then you went from police officer to roofing, well, junk and then roofing. 

[00:03:52.520] - Matthew 

That's more kilometers. 

[00:03:53.560] - Frédérique 

More kilometers? Okay. That's how we calculate it. And then now from 2020 to 2025, you've even had the time to have retrospective and change your business model to increase your growth. That's crazy. 

[00:04:10.040] - Matthew 

But when you're an entrepreneur, you need to adapt yourself, and you need to listen to yourself, and you need to listen other people. So me, I was like, I want to grow, so I'm going to check the people who have done this, who have big business we talk about, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, whatever. But when I look at them, I'm like, they started in their garage, in a basement, whatever, and now they're there. What happened? Let's look what happened. What were the issues? And how can I relate to this? And how did they react to those issues? So it was a way for me to help me to say, Okay, I'm not alone, and some people did this before me. So that's why when you're in growth, it's important, and I will repeat, it's important to have a mentor, someone that you know is where you want to be, and you're like, I want to be there, so what do I need to do to go there? Do not be afraid to tell to this person, Hey, how do you... 

[00:05:12.870] - Frédérique 

How do you get there? 

[00:05:14.050] - Matthew 

How do you get there? 

[00:05:14.850] - Frédérique 

How do I get there? 

[00:05:16.140] - Matthew 

Yeah, how do I get there? And as an entrepreneur, the person you will write or communicate will answer to you. Will answer to you. 

[00:05:24.450] - Frédérique 

If they're a good mentor, yes, they will answer. 

[00:05:26.790] - Matthew 

If they're a good mentor, and if they want to be a mentor, because you have people in business They don't want to be the mentor. It's okay. 

[00:05:31.910] - Frédérique 

It's not for everyone.

[00:05:33.910] - Matthew 

It's not for everyone. But I have people in my network. 

[00:05:38.440] - Frédérique 

In your network, yeah. 

[00:05:40.070] - Matthew 

They want to be the mentor for the young kids. So try to stick with those people. They're going to give you great advice. 

[00:05:47.700] - Frédérique 

Yeah. And earlier we were talking about also the way that you grew, the role that you took. So you said you hired some support staff. 

[00:05:56.880] - Matthew 

Yeah, of course. 

[00:05:57.370] - Frédérique 

And some people on the field. But you, your role, where did you find yourself? 

[00:06:01.740] - Matthew 

Where I had the vision, it was like, now I'm an entrepreneur. I wake up and I have problem to fix, and I have this issue that I'm everywhere at the same time, except where I want to be. So I went to entrepreneur to became a CEO because it's a mentor in a short podcast, we was talking about this to switch your mind to entrepreneur to CEO. And when you have the mindset of a CEO, you need to build some teams to deal with the issue. 

[00:06:42.890] - Frédérique 

The everyday. 

[00:06:43.190] - Matthew 

The everyday issue. So you can focus on the vision, the growth, and everything else to go straightforward and to structure the whole organization. Because if you're always on the field with the guys, always on the field, always with the clients, the customer, you do not have time to have your mind clear and focus on the vision. 

[00:07:04.880] - Frédérique 

And so your position in the business, your X, we'll say, the location where you're the best is as CEO. How did you come about figuring where you should be in your business. 

[00:07:17.590] - Matthew 

Because I wasn't perfect at nothing else. Because me, when I hire someone to do the carpentry or the tiling, I need to know that the person is the best. If you want to be around me, it's because you're the best. 

[00:07:35.060] - Frédérique 

At that specific thing. 

[00:07:36.920] - Matthew 

At this specific thing, you're the best. So you're going to roll with me, and I'm going to roll with you. But you need to be at your position. And me, I was like, Okay, I'm able to do some roofing, I'm able to do some, but I'm not the best. Where I'm the best is at my office with a coffee, my laptop, a pencil, a sheet, and to structure the business, the vision, and the growth. Everything in the backup office, that's my position. And that's where I look at the end of the day, I'm like, okay, we did a step forward. Each time I was on the field, I was like, at the end of the day, okay, the construction is going well, but did we move a step forward? No, we're at the same point. So that's why when I'm hiring people and even my networth, are you guys the best for me? If I need to exchange information or whatever to build a relationship, I need to be with the best to be the best. That's the most important thing when you want to grow. You need to be with the best. 

[00:08:41.000] - Frédérique 

Yeah, absolutely. So what's the thing that made you realize that that's what I want to do. That's what I'm good at? When did you see that? 

[00:08:52.980] - Matthew 

When I was not perfect, when I was on the field, when I was on the roof, when I was in the basement or whatever, doing the ties or whatever. I was good, but not perfect at it. I was like, I'm telling to everybody to be perfect, to give their 100 %. And me, I don't have the capacity to do it. I'm not able to do it because that's not my place. So when after the day, I went to my office, after the day, I was like, Okay, this is the place where I can focus on myself and I can grow in the office. So I had to accept, Okay, Matthew, your spot is not on the field anymore. You need to realize, to sacrifice the pleasure with the boys, all the joke. You need to be alone and to build alone to bring the company higher. So that's when I was like, Okay, I need to do this. 

[00:09:53.510] - Frédérique 

And you figured out your X was being CEO, and there's something that we don't often see necessarily, but some contractors are just better at being contractors, and that's what they want to do. So they want their 8: 00 to, well, it's usually earlier, but 7: 00 to 3: 00 to be doing jobs and everything. That's what they want to do. So hiring a CEO is also an option. It is a role. It is something that you can hire for. 

[00:10:20.700] - Matthew 

I will take an example. If you're good at roofing, if you're excellent at roofing, if you are the best, stay there. 

[00:10:29.500] - Frédérique 

Yeah. 

[00:10:30.000] - Matthew 

Hire people to do the other job. 

[00:10:32.600] - Frédérique 

Yeah, it's not because it's your business that you have to be the CEO. You don't have to. 

[00:10:36.150] - Matthew 

Of course not. But you need to have this reflection. You need to have this mindset to say, Hey, I'm good at, example, roofing, but I'm going to hire someone who's going to deal with everything else. So me, I'm going to focus on the roofing because that's where I can generate more money and more expansion for the company. So that's why maybe me in five years, my growth was quite good. And I saw a lot of people who were behind me and stayed behind me. And they're telling me, Matthew 

[00:11:11.700] - Frédérique 

What you do? 

[00:11:12.690] - Matthew 

What did you do? So I'm telling them, you need to look yourself in the mirror and say, am I at the position where I'm the most efficient in the business? 

[00:11:24.250] - Frédérique 

And a really good way to check if you're in the right place and if you have the right people in the right place is, do they get it? Is that something that they're good at? Do they want it? Is it something you want? Because sometimes you don't want it. You're good at it and you don't want it. And also the capacity. Those three things are the main things to know if you're in the right position in the right place. It's so essential to know your place. 

[00:11:52.530] - Matthew 

Exactly. Example, we're doing a podcast, actually. If I was the type of person to say, I'm too shy. I don't want to be behind the microphone or whatever. I will say in my company, Okay, I'm not going to go there, but I'm going to have someone in the company who is going to be able to go there and is going to have fun to go there. Because as a company, It's important to do some visibility, like podcast, whatever, and stuff like this. It's not because you don't like it that you don't need to do it. You need to do all those things, but not by yourself. You need to build some things to do those jobs. Best example, RenoQuotes, the job that you're doing, taking the clients and everything. 

[00:12:38.980] - Frédérique 

Filtering. 

[00:12:40.300] - Matthew 

I do not have the time to do this. So I'm dealing with you because you guys are the best to bring me the clients. 

[00:12:47.420] - Frédérique 

Thank you. 

[00:12:47.870] - Matthew 

But that's true. That's why I'm rolling with you guys, because you're the best in this field of operation. So me at the beginning of the day, I'm like, I do not have to deal with this because there is a team, you as well, who's dealing with this. So you're the team for my issue number one. I have another team for issue number two. So to have some teams with the day-to-day, now you can focus on the vision and focus on growth. And that's really, really, really important to have this strategy, in my opinion. 

[00:13:22.770] - Frédérique 

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Matthew, for being here again. 

[00:13:26.660] - Matthew 

Thank you. 

[00:13:27.310] - Frédérique 

Always a pleasure. 

[00:13:28.360] - Matthew 

Yes, always. 

[00:13:29.880] - Frédérique 

Today, we have our friend Jason here from Position Pluming. Thank you so much for being here, Jason. 

[00:13:36.600] - Jason 

Yeah, thanks for having me. 

[00:13:38.010] - Frédérique 

And Ronaldo here with us from Admissis. Thank you, Ronaldo, for being here. 

[00:13:41.510] - Ronaldo 

My pleasure. How are you doing today? 

[00:13:43.550] - Frédérique 

Very good. So I'm pretty excited about this because we had a conversation on the phone, and I thought you were a really interesting guy, especially from your background, which is unrelated to plumbing.

[00:13:55.680] - Jason 

Yes, I actually did go to CEGEP, and I studied pure and applied sciences before I realized that just going to university wasn't for me. So I took a quick break, worked at a couple of warehouses here and there, and then I decided to go to plumbing school. 

[00:14:14.390] - Frédérique 

So that kind of a strange background. Tell me about going from pure science to plumbing. 

[00:14:23.650] - Jason 

Look, I really enjoy math, I really enjoy physics, chemistry, all of that. I actually did quite well. Just came down to I didn't see a future where I could enjoy a job in one of those fields, and I was really struggling with trying to figure that out. So I took a break from Cegep all together, and even though I was still trying to read up on different university courses to seeing what I could, I ended up by working at a warehouse making sofas, ironically. So really good for dexterity that I learned later on because bolts, nuts, washer, screws, drills. And then my dad turned around and says, All right, it's been two years. It's time for you to either go back to school or pick a trade. And I'm like, All right, and started reading up some books. And plumbing was the most interesting and the one that clicked the most naturally just based on reading. So that's what I decided to go with. 

[00:15:19.630] - Frédérique 

Very interesting. Do you have any questions about that? 

[00:15:21.310] - Ronaldo 

Well, when you were in CEGEP, right? And you decided, You know what? Maybe university is not the right path for me. Even if you didn't know exactly what path you were going to take, did you have something tell you at that point that you wanted to build your own thing? Because there's the plumbing side of things, but there's the owning your own business side of things as well. 

[00:15:43.230] - Jason 

Not really. My kind of feeling to my own business slightly by accident. 

[00:15:47.860] - Ronaldo 

Okay. 

[00:15:48.760] - Jason 

So once I went back to plumbing school and I passed the entrance exam and I got in and everything, I was actually working at Reno Depot. I was working at Home Depot in the plumbing section as well. 

[00:16:01.610] - Ronaldo 

Okay. 

[00:16:01.850] - Jason 

Okay, so that gave me a base knowledge of the fittings and even just basic troubleshooting. So I was always doing a little bit of plumbing prior to even school. Then while I was in school, I figured, I'm like, Oh, I can make some extra cash, funnel my card to the... Not supposed to, but playing the Gray a little bit, right? And I would do a little bit of side jobs for some cash to make a little bit of extra money. And then eventually, I accidentally had my own little clientele. 

[00:16:34.520] - Ronaldo 

Cool accident, though. 

[00:16:36.500] - Jason 

Yeah, it was a cool accident. It was a happy accident, right, on that one? Yeah. So while I was then apprenticing, I was still doing jobs and had my own clientele in different jurisdiction from my boss at the time. He was very large in Lashin. I was doing a lot more like DDO, pure phone, which he didn't touch. So the conflict of interest was very, very low. My boss was great at the time, so I definitely wasn't interested in trying to take clients or anything. I really wanted to keep that separate. Eventually, it came to a point where I had such a big week that I walked in. I'm like, Hey, man, I'm really tired. I think I need to quit. I'm really sorry. And he's like, No, it's okay. We knew this was coming a little earlier than expected, but not like nobody... It wasn't a surprise to anyone. I ended up by leaving, and then I started my own thing. 

[00:17:30.260] - Frédérique 

And what year was that in? 

[00:17:31.680] - Jason 

Right. So I started my company officially November first, 2015, and I was still working for my boss all the way up until March, 2017. So I spent a year and a half learning the admin aspect of the company and sales and CNESST and the CCQ and the. 

[00:17:51.120] - Frédérique 

All the legalities. 

[00:17:52.060] - Jason 

All the legalities that I spent a year and a half phoning them, trying to figure this out, right? So when I was finally ready to go I'm not my own. I already had a company, I already had an accountant, I was already doing taxes. So my learning curve was like, it was perfect. I didn't have to stress about all of the paperwork. It was already done. My company was incorporated, the shares were bought, all of that. And then I just jumped ship. And I already had a clientele that I've been building from the past four or five years. And then I was fortunate enough to find an employee on July first, 2017. And then almost every nine months later, I bought a truck, and now I have seven trucks on the road. So we're seven plumbers, four apprentices, one dispatch, two managers, and myself. 

[00:18:37.570] - Frédérique 

And that's in 10 years? 

[00:18:39.410] - Jason 

I reach those numbers actually in year six or seven. 

[00:18:43.090] - Frédérique 

Okay. 

[00:18:43.680] - Jason 

And I've been trying to perfect what I've had the last three years and making tweaks and stuff like that. 

[00:18:50.350] - Frédérique 

That is amazing. The growth from the beginning to now or year six. 

[00:18:55.810] - Jason 

It was incredibly quick. Yeah, it was almost every... So if you do the math, six years, And then a truck almost every nine or 10 months. And that's how I got to seven. So I got very large, very quickly in the West Island. I was very lucky. 

[00:19:09.100] - Frédérique 

So many questions about that. So how did you manage all those changes that quickly with your staff, with yourself, with your family? 

[00:19:20.240] - Jason 

With a lot of advice from people that have been where I'm going. That's the best thing I can ever come up with. I heard that from my buddy Steve. He's like, Don't worry, Jay. You're going where I've been, so let's sit down for an hour and chat about it. 

[00:19:34.110] - Frédérique

So ask around. Ask people who've been there. 

[00:19:37.110] - Jason 

Yeah. And not every answer is going to work for you, right? It's your job to extrapolate the data, but you have to be able to do that. But there's a lot of stuff on YouTube. There's a lot of stuff on TikTok. There's a lot of other people. And networking is really big. You might click with somebody else. And the biggest plus was I never viewed my competition as competition. 

[00:19:59.600] - Frédérique 

Yeah. 

[00:20:00.140] - Jason 

My competition, they're my buddies. One of my main competitors doesn't even do the same style of work that I do. And we chat once a month. So even though we're in the same area, we're still in plumbing. He does a lot more commercial and industrial than I do, and I do a lot more excavations and new construction than he does. So even your competition shouldn't be looked at as competition because there's a lot of different paths in plumbing. 

[00:20:28.060] - Frédérique 

And you can learn from them. 

[00:20:29.330] - Jason 

You can learn, my old boss does a lot of gas and Hydronic heating. I don't specialize in that. That's not my strength. So I refer him, but he also doesn't unblock drains. So he refers me. So even two or three other companies, they're still my buddies, and we refer each other work. So if you can grow your network, even within your network, and not just concentrate on people who can bring you work. So for me, it would be contractors and electricians right? You can still look at other plumbing companies that I can refer you stuff that's not their specialty. 

[00:21:03.060] - Frédérique 

How do you go about, you say your buddy. He was already your buddy before? 

[00:21:06.570] - Jason 

No, you got to be friendly and respectful to everyone. I say buddy because we chat and there's no hard feelings when we quote the same job. But we usually laugh about it. At least I know they'll be in good hands if I don't get it, and that's more important than everything else. 

[00:21:20.010] - Frédérique 

Healthy competition. 

[00:21:20.590] - Jason 

Healthy competition, yeah. There is some crossover, but there's a lot of aspects to play. 

[00:21:26.210] - Ronaldo 

How similar or different is it to build your network versus building your clientele? 

[00:21:33.940] - Jason 

It's the same thing. 

[00:21:36.080] - Ronaldo 

It's the same thing 

[00:21:36.750] - Jason 

It's the same thing for me. 

[00:21:37.770] - Ronaldo 

It's as easy to build and to keep both. And how do you do it?

[00:21:43.180] - Jason 

You have to look at there's a lot of crossovers, at least the thought process is the same. You got to keep your clients happy. So even if there's a mistake, you got to be able to correct it. And when you get good feedback, then you got to make sure that they're recognized. And keep a mental note. If somebody is giving you a whole boatload of referrals. I have one gentleman, his name is Joseph, gave me an insane amount of referrals over the last five years. When he calls on a Sunday and his sump pump breaks, you show up. You got to take care of them. And for your network, it goes both ways. If they give you work, you have to be willing to give them work, and sometimes more. If I'm going to, let's say, refer the two of you, let's pretend you're an electrician, you're a contractor, okay? And I'm referring you bathrooms, and I'm referring you whatever electricity I need, or even just to the client, right? Eventually, no matter when I call, you're going to answer because there's a thousand bucks on the table, right? 

[00:22:38.020] - Frédérique 

Yeah, for sure. 

[00:22:39.320] - Jason 

So if you take care of them, when you're in a jam, phone them and just be honest. Don't try to fake it until you make it. You just phone them and be like, Hey, Reynaldo, man, I'm having a tough time. I lost a couple of contracts. Is there any work or anybody that… I just gave you X amount of dollars the last year. What are you going to do? You're going to be 10 minutes out of your day. You're going to phone your own network and say, Hey, man, my buddy Jay. Great dude, gave me a lot of work. It's been a tough time. You guys have any… You're looking for a plumber? And you might make four phone calls. I might get one, but that one, you don't know what that one is worth. It could be worth 500 bucks, could be worth 50,000 bucks. And that one could turn into five or six or seven or eight other leads. And your clients, it's the same way. So you just want to keep everybody top of mind, and you want to take care of them so that when you need it, they'll take care of you. 

[00:23:32.560] - Frédérique 

Be generous. 

[00:23:34.130] - Ronaldo 

In that journey, was there a time where we were like, I'm not sure anymore. I was going 

[00:23:40.650] - Jason 

All the time. 

[00:23:41.440] - Ronaldo 

All the time? What was the most recent time where you were like, I don't know if I should keep going if it got to that point, or this is tougher than I expected. 

[00:23:51.940] - Jason 

I mean, look, when we're really busy, we had the floods, right? My staff was burnt out, and you hit a week where they're tired. They got the flu, they're sick, their kids are sick, and they have to call in sick. Sometimes you get really unlucky. Even with a large team, you get three or four that don't make it in, and you're like, Can you guys just show up? Why am I doing this? I'm selling all these jobs. I need you guys to fix all of these homes, and then you're not there. It can be really discouraging sometimes, and that can happen more often than you think. 

[00:24:28.420] - Ronaldo 

How do you get over that? 

[00:24:29.980] - Jason 

Well, you have to be willing to pick up the tools, right? Just because I'm head of the company and I'm selling jobs and I'm meeting new people and I'm networking, it doesn't mean that I'm too good to put on my plumbing blues and pick up my tools again and go work. And you have to be able to pivot really quickly and just, okay, let's put all the admin aside for today. Let's just switch your mindset. And I'm really fortunate enough to have a really good admin team that I can count on. It's like, okay, guys, I'm not going to be in the office for the next two days. We have to pick up the slack for the guys who didn't make it in, and let's just go do a long day. And you have to be able to pivot quickly. If you can't, it's going to be challenging. 

[00:25:18.470] - Frédérique 

Yeah. Nice. How do you handle it? If that happens, then you have limited time in your day, right? So what if there are jobs that you can't attend? How do you handle customers at that point? 

[00:25:29.160] - Jason 

So it's all about having a healthy mix. The way that I have structured my days is I have seven trucks on the road, right? So if three of them are doing contracts and four of them are on service, service will come first because those people are in a jam. If you're on contracts and you're there for, let's say, anywhere between, let's call it two and six days. If you miss a day, most people will understand. It's also about scheduling. If I turn around and then you say, Hey, man, this job is going to take six days. It might actually I make five, but I told you six. So if I have to push you a day, I'm still in your timeline. So I haven't hurt you at all, right? Because you're still anticipating my timeline. Now, I might be lucky. Maybe my guys are quick. Maybe I put a quicker plumber. 

[00:26:14.100] - Frédérique 

No one's going to get mad if you finish earlier. 

[00:26:16.420] - Jason 

Right. No one's going to get mad if I finish earlier. Maybe I push you a day, worst case, two, but I'll show up with my plumber and we'll just bang out a heavy day instead, an extra two hours, right? To keep your timelines. So if you can schedule accordingly and you need to push somebody, you have to know who your clientele is, which jobs can be pushed, and which timelines can be managed differently. If you can play around with that, then every morning you go in and you just take 10 minutes and you see what obstacles you're facing that day and then which ones are malleable. 

[00:26:49.970] - Ronaldo 

And we were speaking a little earlier. You guys weren't lucky enough to hear it because it was off camera. And you said something about knowing who your clientele was, figuring that out. How soon were you able to do that? And how did you actually pinpoint, You know what? This is the clientele for me. 

[00:27:13.550] - Jason 

I still play around with it. Growth will change that. At the beginning, I was happy just doing service, and I got really popular with a handful of contractors, and my whole company shifted away from service and into renovation. Then unfortunately, a couple of the renovators didn't make it. They went under, and I had to shift back into service. You're constantly playing with the timing, the weather, and which way you want to go, either a linear or more parabolic. It's going to go like that, right? Even now, I had a new contractor. We met, we did a heating job, went fantastic. Guys were super knowledgeable who subbed me out. More It was knowledgeable than I expected, which was a pleasant surprise. They had me quote this absolutely humongous warehouse. I flat out told them, I have never quoted anything like this in my life. I'm like, the work is fine. You want me to run the pipes? Everything is in on my skill set. If you want me to figure out a price? I don't know how to quote 4 kilometers of pipe. Never had to do it. I'm just brutally honest and either they appreciate it or they look for somebody with a little bit more experience. But if you can show that you have the technical knowledge, maybe they'll be willing to work with me and we'll piecemeal it and have a relationship. But I still go through learning curves, and this was only three weeks ago. 

[00:28:37.960] - Frédérique 

It's always about the relationship with the people that you're around and just creating that transparency and that complete honesty. It sets the expectations for the people that you're dealing with, as much for the customers as for other contractors that you're working with.

[00:28:54.390] - Jason 

Yeah, even my regular contractors that I work with monthly, asked me if I was able a heating system for like, Under Slap heating. It's just not something I did. I phoned up, like I mentioned earlier, my old boss who does in-floor heating in Radiant, and they were much happy. They were thrilled that I was just like, Hey, man, that's outside of my skillset. And then I'm still doing the full houses, the extensions, the renovations with them, the service with them. I never ruin the relationship by taking on something that I wasn't comfortable with. 

[00:29:26.990] - Frédérique 

Yeah, because they completely trust you. 

[00:29:28.230] - Jason 

They completely trust me. 

[00:29:29.320] - Frédérique 

They know that you will tell them. 

[00:29:30.890] - Jason 

And then when they get new quotes in Kirkland, Beaconsfield, Point Claire that I'm really familiar with, and they send me the plans, and I'm like, Hey, don't forget about these bylaws. Because that's my bread and butter. And we have just a great relationship that there's just trust. So I don't do something that I'm not comfortable with unless it's in my skillset. But then if I can't quote it, we can do it hourly. There's always a solution, right? You don't just dump them. You can just move along with that. 

[00:30:00.710] - Ronaldo 

Yeah. In your journey, and most contractors, I do believe, there's that growth curve where at some point you figure out not only your clientele, but your worth as a plumber or as a contractor, right? Your worth, your price, right? At what point were you able to become unapologetic about that, where you were like, This is my worth. I'm not going to go under that or I'm not going to just play the price game. 

[00:30:34.830] - Jason 

The price game took me a little bit to...To really be firm with my price is probably about three years. 

[00:30:43.150] - Ronaldo 

Three years? Okay. 

[00:30:43.560] - Jason 

Yeah, because you really want the work and you think lowering your price will get you the relationships and get you the work. A lot of people still do it today, even after a decade. It was about after three years where I brought my price down, and then he still didn't want to pay me, even at the discounted rate. And I'm just like, Bro, I just gave you the deal of a lifetime. The work is fine. You have no complaints. You're just trying to weasel me out. And I was like, Never again. I will never do it again. And it was a big house in NDG, and I pretty much broke even on something that I should have done well on, and that I could have used that money to reinvest into my business. And I barely covered my costs. 

[00:31:25.500] - Frédérique 

So that was your turning point? 

[00:31:27.120] - Jason 

Yeah, I was pretty upset about that. And I'm just like, no, I'd rather lose the job. And that's when one of my buddies was like, hey, man, you really just... You got to trust your network. Just because it's a big job, you can't have big eyes. Somebody is going to say, oh, yeah, but this new construction job is worth $125,000. Cool. There'll be another one in a month. And you have to have that confidence. 

[00:31:51.010] - Frédérique

It's tough, though. 

[00:31:51.810] - Jason 

That's tough because you get blindsided by the money. You're just money blind and money hungry. You just see it and you're like, But what do I I need to sacrifice to do that job. I have to put my top plumber on it for a month. Will he bring me in the same amount of money if I take four smaller jobs? If it's six weeks at $125,000 or he does six weeks at $20,000 for a smaller job, you made the same money. But how many more clients did you help? And what are the chances that those six clients refer you? At least one? Okay, so six becomes seven, you understand, or six becomes eight, or six becomes one, and then one, and then two, and then one. You understand? Because it goes from the world to the referral of word of mouth. So you got to be careful on that. So it took me about three years to be like, Okay, no, I'm not negotiating anymore. And that's when I started trying to really understand that it's not all about price. You can be the most expensive and still get the job, especially if you can provide value in another way. 

[00:32:55.580] - Ronaldo 

And how did the curve go once you took that, so you were growing at a certain rate, then you took that stance of, You know what? I'm not doing that anymore. Was it easier or more difficult for the first few months? 

[00:33:10.410] - Jason 

You had to change your clientele. So when you're starting out and you're doing service, and you're charging hourly, and you want to be a little bit on the bottom side of the scale for charging. So let's say a plumber is 120 an hour. Maybe you're going to start at 90. And then you're only going to attract the people at 90 that are willing to pay 90. But you'll never attract the people that are paying 120, paying me 120. Then you say, Okay, I'm going to raise my prices to 110. Well, you're probably going to lose 30, 40% of your clientele. Because they're not willing to pay 110. Who are they going to find? They're going to find the next newbie who charges 90. So you have to remarket yourself, rebrand yourself. You have to be okay with that. Not everybody is, and it's scary. But you have to realize that every time you move your price point or you move the style of jobs you're doing, or you go from lower class to lower middle class to middle class to high end, there's a pocket and you have to find it. So it takes a while to figure out and to have the confidence to do that. That can be a challenge for anyone. 

[00:34:21.390] - Frédérique 

And obviously that would probably require a financial stability. 

[00:34:25.650] - Jason 

Yeah, having good cash flow is really important. That was probably one of my biggest ones It was really fast and my cash flow didn't. Even though we were profiting, you also reinvest. So you look at your numbers and your accountant's like, Hey, man, you profited 2 %. You're like, Oh, damn, am I going to go under? Am I going to fail? No, it's just you invested in a lot of equipment. You invested in marketing. Maybe you invested in people. 

[00:34:49.810] - Frédérique 

Well, especially with the growth that you had. So yeah, obviously. 

[00:34:52.930] - Jason 

It was very challenging. So when you look at the numbers, it doesn't look like a very successful company. But at the end of the day, you're selling for for quite a bit. 

[00:35:01.680] - Frédérique 

Yeah. It's not all about the profit necessarily, though. 

[00:35:04.680] - Jason 

Not right away. It takes a while to try to concentrate on growing cash flow and profit. You really want to grow reputation. You want to grow your team. You want to invest in knowledge and training and experience. All of that, it really goes a long way.

[00:35:22.620] - Frédérique 

Awesome. 

[00:35:23.160] - Ronaldo 

You know a lot of plumbers, right? Because that's your network. Well, they're part of your network. Would you say there are some personality, like similarities between plumbers or not at all? They could be all different. Or is there something where 

[00:35:37.150] - Frédérique 

A caricature. 

[00:35:37.710] - Ronaldo 

Can you just speak to someone and like, Hey, are you a plumber? Could you recognize someone? 

[00:35:45.820] - Jason 

You can always tell when somebody thinks that no matter how they plumb, it's the right way and everybody else is wrong. You get somebody talking about anything construction. No, this is the right way. This guy did this wrong. The moment they start tearing another picture apart being like, that's wrong, you know they're either in construction and they're probably a plumber or electrician. 

[00:36:04.710] - Ronaldo 

Okay, things go there? So there are some similarities. 

[00:36:07.730] - Jason 

Yeah, because they all think that their stuff is the best, right? Even though there's 10 ways to do it, no, this is the way. And I'm just as guilty. 

[00:36:15.670] - Frédérique 

That's what I was going to ask. 

[00:36:17.140] - Jason 

That's why I started a company because I thought I could do it the best. 

[00:36:21.410] - Ronaldo 

Well, it seems to be working. 

[00:36:22.340] - Jason 

It seems to be working. Yeah, that's it. 

[00:36:25.240] - Frédérique 

Well, that was great. Thank you so much, Jason, for being with us. Thank you, Ronaldo..