S1 E5 - Designer or Decorator – What’s the Difference?

[00:00:10.050] - Ronaldo 

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to a new episode of Between Bricks and Binders. My name is Ronaldo, and today we have Mara from Mara Design, helping us tackle this amazing subject, which is interior design. How are you doing today? 

[00:00:25.610] - Mara 

Hi. Thanks for having me. 

[00:00:27.140] - Ronaldo 

My pleasure. You're going to help us demystify certain things when it comes to 

[00:00:33.010] - Mara 

I hope so. 

[00:00:33.650] - Ronaldo 

Interior designs. First question I would have for you today is, what are the qualifications necessary to actually become an interior designer? 

[00:00:42.830] - Mara 

An interior designer, you can go to college. It's three years specialized in interior design in CEGEP. You can also do at the university, you can do a bac. That's another two year, if I'm not mistaking. I did the DEC. I went to college, I studied for three years, and I started working right away after. I know there's courses that you can get from DEP, which is more professional, so you don't have all the basic course that you have in college. You have only designer course. There's some qualification that they're not standard. You don't have enough technique courses. You have to be careful by choosing those ones. I don't know them really well, so I don't want to 

[00:01:32.990] - Ronaldo 

So you mean outside of the regular path of either the college or the university, there are other ways or some people claim to be what do you mean by other ways? Are they certified designers? 

[00:01:48.030] - Mara 

Some of them cannot be certified by l'APDIQ, which is l'Association Professionnelle des Designers d'intérieurs du Québec. It's an association that make sure that if you do say that your interior designer is certified, APDIQ, that means that you have all the qualification required to do work as a professional designer. So they do have standards, and some of those courses, they're not complete enough. 

[00:02:20.730] - Ronaldo 

So they don't offer the practical side of things. They give you some theory, but not enough practical to actually call yourself an an interior designer. 

[00:02:31.210] - Mara 

They do give you information about the interior design job, but some of them, not all of them, that's why I don't want to talk about it too much, but some of them, they're not complete. You just have to make sure that you have all the basic courses, the technical part, because it's really technical. To be an interior designer, we're far from choosing colors and pillows. We're more talking about structure and the codes and the norms and material and the specification. So we're a lot more that than decorators. So you still need some background, some study that will help you be a professional. So you just have to make sure that the course because there's also a course online, on social media. Take those 20 hours course, and you can... Because interior designer, it's not a term that's protected, like architect, we cannot call ourselves interior architect, let's say, because it's an order. It's something that we're not allowed to play with because they have responsibility that comes with that. So designers, unfortunately, anybody can... You can call yourself a designer. So it's 

[00:03:43.650] - Ronaldo 

I'll try that. I'm a designer. No, I can't ?

[00:03:47.510] - Mara 

Then it's the responsibility of the client to do some search and make sure that, okay, my designer is a professional and is certified. But some of them has a typic background, and they work for 20 years, and they won't be able to be certified, but they have enough experience to work. Because it's not an obligation in the association 

[00:04:13.330] - Ronaldo 

Some of them are part of it, some of them are not. 

[00:04:15.330] - Mara 

Exactly. 

[00:04:15.570] - Ronaldo 

But at least this association would help the clients that maybe have doubts on the person that they actually want to hire. So that's the path we need to take, or someone needs to take if they want to become an interior designer. Once they become an interior designer, what are exactly the roles of an interior designer? 

[00:04:36.700] - Mara 

That's a good question. I have to say it again and again, we are the first one that you need to call when you have a project. Because our role is to literally take you by the hand and show you step by step what you need to prepare yourself as budget-wise. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to burst bubbles and destroy dreams because the budget doesn't fit the reality of the project. So this needs to be a reality check, and that's what we do. So that's why it's important to contact the designer from the get-go. We'll be able to tell you, Well, your project, if you want to move a wall, if you want to do this or that, you will need other professionals because I'm limited. Of course, a decorator will be limited. I'm limited. A technologue, an architectural technologue will be limited to. Everybody has their specialty, and we're all working together. But the core, I believe it's us, because sometimes we don't need an engineer. Sometimes we don't need an architect. Sometimes we don't need a technologue. But if you have a renovation, not decoration, if you actually have touching tiling, tub, kitchen, wall, you need to maximize space, built-ins, all that stuff, all that custom stuff, you need a designer. And that's from step one. Our role is really to show you all your options, what is realistic, what to expect. And we're really the core. The core of a renovation project. 

[00:06:18.530] - Ronaldo 

That's pretty interesting just because a lot of people see the hiring or the help of an interior designer as a luxury item. If ever my project is something that is outside of the norms, or if I have an idea that I 

[00:06:36.350] - Mara 

Big project. 

[00:06:36.800] - Ronaldo 

Or a big project, right? These are the occasions that people might think of hiring an interior designer. But you're saying that you should be the first person that they call. And do you work with the other professionals? And how does that actually work when you have to communicate with the client? And you were mentioning potential technologists, architects. How does that work? 

[00:07:07.870] - Mara 

Definitely, we start with analyzing the project. So we will do a plan. Actually, no, before that, the client should shop around, looking at website, looking at, Okay, I like that style of a designer. Then you make a phone call. And that phone call is really important because you're checking if, Am I the good designer for you? And are you the client for me? Can we work together? Because it's really personal. We're going into their homes. We're asking really personal questions to know how to work with the space and give them something that's really for them. So first step is that phone call. And after that, we go to meet the client and we analyze. Right away, we can tell, your budget doesn't fit, or, Oh, you're going to need to open a wall. And we do a basic plan to say, Okay, for that plan and your budget, let's say 100 grand for that plan, we're touching a wall. Oh, but that's a supporting wall. So right away, we have another professional that's going to come in the project because that's my limitation. I cannot tell the client, Okay, we're going to open this, and no problem. We have to make some holes, make sure that the structure is what we think and plan accordingly. Because it's not because we're opening a wall, that's the way we're going to do it. We have to see how it's been built before, and is it supported well like this, or do we need to support underneath? There's a lot of step, but that's another professional. And if we're touching the outside, that's another other professional. That's an architect. That's something that it's not my job, and it's not the engineer to tell you, Well, okay, because of the windows, how you change. Most of the job, I would say it's an engineer. I work a lot with engineers, structural engineers, and sometimes it would be architect or a technologist. 

[00:09:04.960] - Ronaldo 

Okay. And I really have a question when it comes to that collaboration, right? Because in my mind, that makes a lot of people that are professionals or think that they're professionals. The professionals would be yourself, the architect, the technologist, the engineer, and the person or the people that think that they're professionals would be the client, right? Sometimes the client says, I know how this should go. Then you have the way that you know it should go, but then so does the architect or the engineer. Is there any times where those ideas, beliefs, or that knowledge basically collides? 

[00:09:50.380] - Mara 

It's all a collaboration. In the end, everybody has the same goal, and it's to make sure that the project, it's feasible, the time frame it's feasible, that we deliver a project that the client's happy. So yes, unfortunately, there's a lot of misconception that we see on TV. So most of clients have a basic idea of... 

[00:10:13.840] - Ronaldo 

What they want, yeah. 

[00:10:14.850] - Mara 

Something like, Okay, I think a designer is this and that. Unfortunately, most of the time, it's not the right role or it's not... We're still mistaking us for a decorator or a stylist, interior stylist, and that's a job itself. There's designers that will do decoration at the end, and some people just do decoration, and they're not designers. That's their limitation. But that's the fine line where you have to be careful because some decorators said, Yes, i'm a designer, and they can't back it up. So you have to make sure that the designer that you hire is a professional designer that has the scholarship and the project the experience to back up, to be able to say, yes, I can take that project with you, and it's all collaboration. It didn't happen to me that, let's say, an architect says, I wanted to do it like that, and too bad for you. It's not your project. It's not my project. It's the client's project. So we're all working together, making sure that the client's happy. I like to work with the same people. We develop a good collaboration. Usually, it's It goes well because the architect or the engineer, they don't want to work with the inside. Even the contractor, he doesn't care where you put your tub. It's not his job. He wants a plan to say, okay, that's it. 

[00:11:43.830] - Ronaldo 

Follow this, and this is what i want 

[00:11:44.200] - Mara 

Exactly that the client wants. Okay, I have an idea what to quote. Compared to if you go straight to a contractor without having a plan. 

[00:11:54.230] - Ronaldo 

Then there's going to be modifications. 

[00:11:56.200] - Mara 

He will have a million questions. What's the size of it? What do you want to do? Do you open the wall? What's the cabinet? What's the material? Do you want quarts? What's your tie? There's so many variables, and that's not his job. That's my job. I love my job, and I'm good at it. Usually, contractor likes to work with designer because we take that stress and that portion.

[00:12:17.670] - Ronaldo 

Away from them, yeah. 

[00:12:17.980] - Mara 

Yeah. It's really not their thing. It's our thing, and we like that. 

[00:12:23.470] - Ronaldo 

Perfect. You said it, I think, twice now that we should contact you first. First, right? What are the other steps of a construction project where you involve yourself in? Let's say somebody just didn't call you when they started their project. And what other steps do you think that, See, I could be there helping you in this step of the way. 

[00:12:49.730] - Mara 

They really have to call us first. I'm sorry. The worst thing they can do is wait for the project to start and then be like, Oh, I need a designer. That means the demo is already done, the contractor is waiting, nothing's ordered, or some stuff are ordered, but now they have to change because it doesn't fit what they had in mind because they thought the space was bigger. That's the worst they can do. A project that requires a renovation that it's small or big. It's always stressful. It's in your house, it's your money. It's normal to be stressful. But what we do when you plan everything ahead, you remove that stress because you know what's coming. You know while you're planning it, nobody's waiting for you. Oh, where do we put that? Or it's okay, take your time. Plan it correctly. Change your mind. When it's on a piece of paper, it doesn't cost much to change your mind. When the contractor is waiting for you to know where to put stuff, or you move, I didn't thought. So we do a lot of planning before to the material, why we choose that material. This is going to look like this. This is elevation. You're lighting everything. It's on a piece of paper, so we have a game plan. So you can't expect that while you're in the project. Now, it takes... 

[00:14:02.710] - Ronaldo 

It has to be done before. 

[00:14:03.080] - Mara 

Exactly. It takes some time, and that's why you need to call us. 

[00:14:07.460] - Ronaldo 

First. 

[00:14:07.900] - Mara 

First. 

[00:14:08.530] - Ronaldo 

I definitely got it. But what can a client expect? Because now you're saying that your services help them plan ahead and know what to expect in terms of how much will the project cost me, right? 

[00:14:22.920] - Mara 

Roughly. Again, that's not our specialty. That's the contractor that will know with all the material. But for sure, if somebody comes to us and say, I want a big open concept kitchen. I need to move that wall, all that stuff, and I have $40,000, I'm going to tell him it's impossible. You have to be realistic. But how much? Exactly, I'm not sure. Let's make a rough plan, just a plan to know this is the size that you're looking for, so the contractor will know what to price, and he will tell you, okay. 

[00:14:54.200] - Ronaldo 

This is not much for the project. 

[00:14:55.630] - Mara 

Exactly.

[00:14:56.170] - Ronaldo 

How could they plan for your price, for your services, basically? What should they expect in terms of fees from a professional designer? 

[00:15:06.310] - Mara 

There's a couple of way designers charge. There's a fixed price, a fixed contract. The thing with that, the contract needs to be really detailed on how many times we're meeting, how many times I'm going to modify the plant and all that stuff. And then everything that doesn't fall in that, there's extra. There's another way to do it, and it's by hour. So I prefer by hour because I think it's more fair for everybody. If the client wants to get involved by doing some quotes on his side or shopping for the tile or material, I really don't mind. I'm there to help him. If he wants to take a section of the whole project by himself, I have no problem. So overall, you have to say, Okay, all the planification, let's say, engineer, a designer, the planning, so the core of the project before it actually starts, usually it's between 8 and 15% of the total of the budget. So that is what to expect. And it's been 15 years that I'm doing this, and every time at the end I look, I'm like, Yeah, you know what? Even if I'm by the hour, but in the end, it's the same thing. So there's variables, of course, because there's so many variables. 

[00:16:17.460] - Ronaldo 

Yeah, for sure. 

[00:16:18.110] - Mara 

But in the end, it's roughly that. So at least they have a realistic point of view of professionals, of the planning. Let's say, Oh, but that's 10% of 100K, it's 10K of planning. Yes. And if you skip that part and you're in your project and you have spent $100,000 without planning it properly, I can guarantee you're going to regret it. Because unless you do that full-time, which is fine, and you're really aware of the step, and you know what you want to change, but then you need to be at all the steps implicated. You have to go with a cuisinist that will do your kitchen. You have to go choose your tile, You have to be actually a designer without being a designer. So if you're not planning to do that, hire the professional that will help you make those choices. And that's us. And you call us? 

[00:17:11.530] - Ronaldo 

First. First. Hey, see, I'm listening. I'm definitely listening. I'm not going to forget that portion because, like I said at first, a lot of people saw or believe that it's a luxury thing to add a designer to the project. And you're kind of making that switch of it's a luxury to it's necessary. 

[00:17:39.590] - Mara 

It's a necessity. 

[00:17:40.620] - Ronaldo 

Yeah it's a necessity. So that's why I kind of laugh when you say, first, because even myself, I never thought of calling a designer first. I always thought, okay, if my project is different, if you know what, if I don't want the regular cut for these rooms, then 

[00:17:59.310] - Mara 

Then you need a designer. 

[00:18:00.460] - Ronaldo 

I might think about a designer. 

[00:18:01.710] - Mara 

Yeah, but no. 

[00:18:02.980] - Ronaldo 

So that's a mistake on my part. And that being one of my mistakes, what are the biggest mistakes that you think could be done by clients or that you've seen in your 15-year career ? 

[00:18:15.110] - Ronaldo

That they can do it without the designer. 

[00:18:17.240] - Ronaldo 

That's the big mistake. 

[00:18:18.580] - Mara 

Yeah, seriously. 

[00:18:19.170] - Ronaldo 

They didn't call me. That's the biggest thing. 

[00:18:20.530] - Mara 

Yeah, exactly. They didn't call me. But it is. They didn't call me. They didn't call a professional, or they didn't do their homework saying, I'm not going to call a designer, but I'm ready to do that full-time. Because a contractor is a specialist, for sure. Is a professional that's going to give you as best as it can advice on what you should or should not do. But he has a limitation. Everything that's structured, that's wall, windows, flooring, he does have knowledge. Insulation, he does know a lot of things. But where his knowledge stop, it's where our knowledge start. So kitchen materials, what tile to choose, what color, lighting, to center with what. There's so many details that needs to be specified when you do a renovation or a new construction. That's not the contractor's job. So unless the client is a designer itself, or he has a lot of knowledge, if he wants to remove the stress out of it, if he wants to do it properly, that's our job. So it's not a luxury. It's absolutely not. It's a necessity for everything. I do everything from rentals apartment to luxuries house and everything in between. Why? Because even in rentals, you have to choose the right material for tenants. You have to choose the right colors, everything, the right lighting, something that's going to last. All the choices that you make, it's a house. It's not something that you're going to say, we'll do it, whatever. You're building something. That's my joy. Actually, that's why I specialize in the home renovation. It's to give a second life to something that already exists or to be able to build something with an architect for a new construction starting from scratch and putting something there, then like, Oh, I participate in that. I did my best to make sure that this will last a very long time and that the money of my clients is well invested, and they will renovate, hopefully in a long, long time because it costs a lot of money, so we try to do it. 

[00:20:31.590] - Ronaldo 

So we try to do it less often as possible. 

[00:20:33.500] - Mara 

Exactly. So it doesn't matter if it's a small or big project. As soon as it's more than just decoration, you need a designer. For a bathroom renovation, you need a designer. And it can be only to prep it, to do the plans. This is the plan that we're looking for, this is the material, this is what it will going to look like. And if it's a small project and the contractor is there, I'll be on call. So do the project with the contractor. If anything, I'll be on call 

[00:21:00.440] - Ronaldo 

And then you'll be able to... 

[00:21:01.730] - Mara 

Exactly. 

[00:21:02.440] - Ronaldo 

Yeah, definitely very interesting. We were able to cover everything that had to do with the theory of interior design. I do think that we will have a segment where we'll come on site with you and we'll see the practical side of things with actual... 

[00:21:16.330] - Mara 

Yes, definitely. Can't wait.

[00:21:17.380] - Ronaldo 

Real client, real project. So definitely looking forward to that. Thanks a lot, Mara. 

[00:21:23.790] - Mara 

My pleasure. 

[00:21:24.780] - Ronaldo 

Very interesting. 

[00:21:25.300] - Mara 

Thank you for having me. It was really nice. 

[00:21:26.780] - Ronaldo 

Pleasure. 

[00:21:28.910] - Ronaldo 

Once again, a very interesting interview with Mara of Mara Design. A lot of key things to keep in mind. First of all, the fact that hiring an interior designer is not luxury. As she said, you should be calling them first. She spoke of the interior designers as a necessity for your project. I do understand that hiring them can help you have a better vision of your project. It could prevent you from getting lost in the different changes that might happen in the middle of a project and things of that nature. But we also know now the differences between an interior designer and a decorator. The fact that an interior designer is going to help you with trying to maximize the usage of your space and will not be limited or will not focus on only the esthetics. And I'm saying only, not that it's not important. In fact, it is important because we will be talking to a decorator that will highlight the importance of the esthetics. 

[00:22:35.450] - Frédérique 

We have Karine Matte, from Matte & Glossy here with us to talk about decorating. Thank you for being here, Karine. 

[00:22:42.660] - Karine 

My pleasure. 

[00:22:44.080] - Frédérique 

Our concept of this show is to differentiate the interior decorator and the... Sorry, interior designer and decorator in the two different fields. Tell me a little bit about what the differences are between those two. 

[00:22:59.410] - Karine 

Well, the main difference is as an interior decorator, we don't touch the walls, we don't touch the electricity, the plumbing. So it's mainly the finishing touch of the decor. So usually we come after the contractor, the interior designer, and we are just here to sparkle the house. 

[00:23:23.730] - Frédérique 

And that fits with your personality because you're a very sparkly person, you're a very colorful person. So that's what you do. 

[00:23:29.500] - Karine 

That's what I do it, and I love it. 

[00:23:30.830] - Frédérique 

So tell me a little bit about how this happens. So you have the interior designer that goes through and they come and get you after. How does that work? What is the relationship? 

[00:23:41.110] - Karine 

Well, I've been working by myself for nine years. So usually, and I have quite a niche, I'm specialized in color and eclectic decor. So usually the designer doesn't really come to me. It happened once because the house was mainly a mid-century, modern-style house. And the designer, she knew me, and she knew that I love that style. So I was very, very pleased and flattered that she contacted me to choose the lighting and all the little furniture, the finishing touch. So that was actually, I think, the only time that I worked with an interior designer. So basically, I don't work hand-to-hand with interior designer, but I'm always open, of course, to help with the finishing touch. 

[00:24:34.660] - Frédérique 

So if you don't have it with the interior designer, do you get contracts through contractors? Does that work, too? 

[00:24:39.930] - Karine 

Well, mainly, yes. Usually, it's customers, clients directly that comes to me. But sometimes I can go and pick the contractor because usually 

[00:24:51.720] - Frédérique 

Okay, so it's inverse, right? 

[00:24:53.340] - Karine 

It's inverse. It can happen because sometimes if the client just want to change a few things, let's say a bathroom, and we don't move the plumbing, we don't change the layout, well, I can work directly with a contractor. I know exactly where to put the bath, the vanity, everything that is already there. We just actually update the look. So it's feasible, yes. 

[00:25:20.320] - Frédérique 

And do you have a team that works with you? 

[00:25:22.260] - Karine 

I have a few people. I have my team, but we don't work together. It's just when someone ask me for a contractor, I have my few favorites, same as the... 

[00:25:36.060] - Frédérique 

Wallpaper install. 

[00:25:36.870] - Karine 

Wallpaper install or a man that can do everything. I don't know how to say. 

[00:25:41.650] - Frédérique 

We say, "Homme à tout faire in French" in French 

[00:25:43.340] - Karine 

Homme à tout faire, how do you say it in English. I don't know. Is there a word for that? 

[00:25:47.910] - Frédérique 

I'm trying to think about it. Because I'm on the spot now, I don't even know what the word is but yes. 

[00:25:53.390] - Karine 

The man who does everything or the woman. 

[00:25:56.270] - Frédérique 

The jobber? 

[00:25:56.970] - Karine 

The jobber? Yeah. So yeah, I have my favorite that if they're available, I can put them on the project. Yes. 

[00:26:05.820] - Frédérique 

So when does a customer come and see you instead of a designer?

[00:26:10.430] - Karine 

Well, again, it's usually at the end of a process. So the contractor came, the interior designer did the plan and work with the contractor. So basically, it's at the end when they really want to have the feel that they look for in their house. So my main objective is really to put the soul and to put in the decor, all the little things that sometimes they don't even think of. And that's it. So It's just basically, they have to feel good in their home. It's the most important thing. 

[00:26:50.990] - Frédérique 

Yeah. So emotion. 

[00:26:52.420] - Karine 

Emotion, exactly. 

[00:26:54.200] - Frédérique 

So we all know colors give emotions, whatever. But I'm assuming you're pretty specialized in what type of emotions go where and what people want to have. 

[00:27:05.500] - Karine 

Yes, it's my specialty through color, of course, because every color has an impact. And it doesn't mean that your favorite color is good for you in your home. You know people sometimes, I love yellow, but they want a quiet and peaceful house because probably of what they do or their needs. But maybe it's not the color for their... 

[00:27:30.660] - Frédérique 

They should get a yellow car, right? 

[00:27:32.960] - Karine 

Let's get a yellow jacket. That's fine. And the same as the finishing touch. Sometimes people ask me, what should I put on my shelf? What decoration objects should I buy? And I'm like, you know what? Wait. Wait until for your next trip and bring something that brings an emotion, and you have to be patient. It's the most important thing. If you want a good decor, you have to be patient. 

[00:28:03.690] - Frédérique 

Yeah, especially if you want a decor that reflects your personality and not something very standard and big box store. 

[00:28:09.480] - Karine 

Exactly. And if you want to go second-hand, which is my go-to, go. It's where so many precious objects there if you go into it. 

[00:28:21.050] - Frédérique 

And then you get unique pieces. 

[00:28:22.330] - Karine 

Yes, exactly. 

[00:28:22.760] - Frédérique 

Which is better. That's great. Well, that's actually a good point of closure. Thank you very much for being with us. Thank you, Karine. 

[00:28:29.570] - Karine 

Thank you. 

[00:28:31.720] - Frédérique 

So after listening to those episodes, that was super pertinent, and it's so obvious now what the difference are between those traits.

[00:28:39.000] - Ronaldo 

Yeah, definitely. I mean, if the structure is involved or if it's space optimization, then it should be interior design. 

[00:28:44.740] - Frédérique 

Yeah, and if we're talking about anything that's surface, esthetics, colors, then we're talking about decorating. 

[00:28:50.220] - Ronaldo 

Decorating, exactly. 

[00:28:51.670] - Frédérique 

I hope you learned something today, so thank you so much for joining us. 

[00:28:56.290] - Ronaldo 

Please leave your comments, like, follow, subscribe. It's going to help us a ton. And let's see you next time for another episode of Bricks and Binders. 

[00:29:04.560] - Frédérique 

Thank you so much.